MS MARTIN: NATO partners; they’re not NATO members, they’re NATO partners. What role do you see them playing going forward? Can you just – and could you be a little bit specific?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: José Manuel makes a really important point, especially because we’re here at NATO. There was a fiction that Vladimir Putin tried to advance that this was somehow about a threat that NATO posed to Russia or that Ukraine posed to Russia. It was never about that, and it remains clear that it never will be.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: So —
So, for me, we all agree that dialogue would have been the best way to discuss anything, but unfortunately, Vladimir Putin doesn’t agree with us.
MS MARTIN: All right, great. Everyone ready and settled? On behalf of the Atlantic Council and all of the other partners to this – to this event, I welcome you and I thank you for spending this time with us after a very long day. I’m so delighted to have with us the Foreign Minister of Spain, José Manuel Albares, and the U.S. Secretary of State, Antony Blinken. We’re just going to get right into our conversation. And I’m Michel Martin; I’m the – one of the hosts of All Things Considered from National Public Radio in the United States, headquartered in Washington, D.C., and we do hope you’re all supporters and contributors. (Laughter.) All of you who can.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: That’s right.
MS MARTIN: Mr. Secretary, easy for me to say because I haven’t been in all those meetings, but one could make an argument that this has been the easy part, funneling weapons to Ukraine, maintaining solidarity around helping Ukraine maintain a defense. One can make an argument that the hard part is yet to come, pivoting to a diplomatic solution which at some point has to take place. Are there any meaningful negotiations going on? If so, who’s taking part in them? And if there aren’t, what would trigger them?
One of the interesting things, Michel, is that the United States and Spain – I’ll leave aside NATO for the minute – are working closely together, including in the Western Hemisphere, to try to deal with the irregular migration that we’re seeing there. We just came back together – before coming to NATO, we were at the Summit of the Americas in Los Angeles. For the first time, the countries in our hemisphere, through what’s called the Los Angeles Declaration, said we have shared responsibilities when it comes to trying to deal with migration because not a single one of us alone can deal with it effectively. And we are following through on a number of things that we’ve agreed to to try to work on this collectively.
MS MARTIN: Sure, of course.
MS MARTIN: So, another question for both of you. China. I mean, is it your hopes that steps taken here will send a message to China? And if so, what is it? What’s the message?
FOREIGN MINISTER ALBARES: China is a permanently member of the Security Council, so their role must be to preserve world peace and stability. That’s what we expect from China. So that’s the main message from this summit to China. What NATO wants is peace and stability in the world, and we hope to cooperate with them. So, it’s to China to tell us if they want to engage with us in that way.
What this is about is Vladimir Putin’s conviction that Ukraine does not deserve to be a sovereign, independent country. It’s not about a threat that NATO poses. It’s not about a threat that Ukraine poses. And unless and until he gives up on this fixation on trying to end Ukraine’s sovereignty and independence, it’s going to be hard to get anywhere.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: And just to add one thing because this is important.
So, at the same time, there is this awareness that what’s going on in the east concerns us very directly because it’s a change in the European order of avoiding war as a way of solving conflicts; and at the same time all concerns – east and south – are really, really under the Madrid Strategic Concept.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: That’s right.
MS MARTIN: Agreed. When will a diplomatic solution be on the table —
MS MARTIN: — and is one in the offing?
MS MARTIN: But go ahead. (Laughter.)
SECRETARY BLINKEN: Well, Michel, first I think we have to recognize that the hard part is every single day for people in Ukraine. The death, the destruction being wrought by the Russian aggression – some of which we see on our screens, much of which we don’t – is extraordinary, and the Ukrainians are living this every single day. So that’s the hard part. And —
SECRETARY BLINKEN: Yes.
At the same time, there are aspects increasingly where we have to contest what China is doing. And one of the things that it’s doing is seeking to undermine the rules-based international order that we adhere to, that we believe in, that we helped build. And in that sense, NATO has come together and said in its Strategic Concept this is the – basically the blueprint that we have for how we’re going to approach the world together. For the first time, we have China as a feature of that Strategic Concept, a concern that all of the countries in NATO have. Not looking for conflict but trying to make sure that together we’re upholding the rules-based international order – wherever it’s being challenged. And if China’s challenging it in one way or another, we will stand up to that.
At the same time, there are aspects increasingly where we have to contest what China is doing. And one of the things that it’s doing is seeking to undermine the rules-based international order that we adhere to, that we believe in, that we helped build. And in that sense, NATO has come together and said in its Strategic Concept this is the – basically the blueprint that we have for how we’re going to approach the world together. For the first time, we have China as a feature of that Strategic Concept, a concern that all of the countries in NATO have. Not looking for conflict but trying to make sure that together we’re upholding the rules-based international order – wherever it’s being challenged. And if China’s challenging it in one way or another, we will stand up to that.
MS MARTIN: Okay. Before we let you go, just a final question for each of you, an open-ended question: What do you see as the biggest challenge for NATO going forward? I mean, some say it’s those – these gray zone countries like Georgia or Moldova, possibly Ukraine going forward, where these countries are looking to the West for security guarantees but they’re probably not going to be members of NATO. Some people say it’s the illiberal tendencies that are emerging in countries that we thought to be settled democracies. I don’t think I need to name them.
MS MARTIN: So, the stated goal of this conversation was NATO after Madrid, and I want to talk about some of those issues.
FOREIGN MINISTER ALBARES: — any problem that Russia could have concerning its security. And right now, what we are seeing is that there is no one day in which civilians are killed or bombed.
At the same time, as José Manuel said, there are areas where we hope to pursue cooperation. But in 2010, the last time we had a Strategic Concept – a document that I know maybe some people’s eyes will glaze over, but it’s actually, really important to look at it, because it does define the road ahead for NATO, what it is this Alliance will be doing. Yes, defending itself and trying to deter aggression from countries like Russia, dealing with all sorts of new transnational threats that didn’t even exist at the time the last Strategic Concept, in 2010, was written.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: I very much agree. The relationship that we all have with China is among the most complex and consequential of any relationship that we have with another country. And there are aspects of the relationship that are clearly competitive, and we need to make sure that that competition is fair and engage in it very, very strongly.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: That really should have been the last word, because I think it was perfect.
MS MARTIN: Whose – what would – what would (inaudible)?
So, what do you see as the biggest challenge for NATO going forward? And let’s say – Minister, we gave you the first word, so I’ll give Mr. Blinken the last word. So, will you go first?
MS MARTIN: Secretary of State Blinken, Minister José Manuel Albares, thank you so much for joining us today. I’m sorry we don’t have time for questions, so I was told. Thank you so much for joining us.
MS MARTIN: — affected by the conflict, for other member nations like your two.
MS MARTIN: What about you, Mr. Secretary? Thoughts?
FOREIGN MINISTER ALBARES: Yeah, all public opinions in Europe, and clearly here in Spain – we are very, very far from the eastern flank and from Russia – understood very quickly, starting in February 24, that something had changed dramatically that day. War – conventional war and full to scale – was back on European soil. And we were heading towards a new security Euro-Atlantic order, and therefore what was happening there really concerned us. And it was also a threat to us. So, the public opinion is supportive – we see the polls in Spain – to ask joining all the other European partners and our natural allies, the United States, are very, very high. And I think that this summit is showing that that’s not uncompatible with taking also a look to other threats coming from the south or hybrid threats that can happen in the east or in the south.
