SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Hello and welcome to a new series of Hard Talk India interviews.
If the United Progressive Alliance Government in India has made strides, then undoubtedly it is in the field of foreign policy. In the last one year, three extensive relationships have been completely transformed – with the United States of America, with China and with Pakistan. Although India still faces serious problems with its neighbours closer at home, there are of course real signs that Indian foreign policy has come to terms with the realities of the 21st century. Here, to talk about the challenges he faces, is India’s Foreign Minister K. Natwar Singh.
Foreign Minister, let us start a little differently. You often speak of yourself as a great believer in nonalignment. Today, more than ten years after the cold war ended, just how relevant is nonalignment.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER (SHRI NATWAR SINGH): Well, I ask you a counter question. How is NATO relevant? The Warsaw Pact is wound up; the Soviet Union has disappeared; communism has gone from East Europe; the cold war is over; and NATO is expanding. Why is that?
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: NATO fulfills a need the Europeans feel for. What need does non-alignment fulfill for you?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: It is not about what it gives… It is not a dogma; it is not a doctrine; it is independent thinking. It creates an atmosphere for reconciliation, for détente, for peaceful coexistence and to judge each issue on its merits. So, Non Aligned Movement needs diplomatic blood transfusion; non-alignment does not.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, Nonalignment is a platform for independent thinking and for each country to project its national interest open-mindedly.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: That is right.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: All right. In Opposition, you were often publicly skeptical of America. In fact you once wrote that India as a nonaligned country could not be the natural ally of a major NATO power. Today, after almost one year in office, how has your attitude to America changed?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Let me take off from what Rumsfeld said the other day, that was the old network. This is a new network. Now I am not in Opposition. I am the Foreign Minister of India and it is my principal duty to ensure that India’s vital national interests are never compromised. For that, it is essential for us to have the closest relations with the United States, with China, with Russia, with Japan, with France, with UK and so many other countries.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, what you are saying is, ‘Do not judge me by the rhetoric of an Opposition politician; judge me by what I do today in office as Foreign Minister.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, of course. But, I have a fair amount of experience in this business. So, I know what the responsibilities are when you are the Foreign Minister of India.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Absolutely. Let me push you a little. There is a view in India which once upon a time you used to share that between India and Pakistan, America always ends up leaning on the side of Pakistan. Is that the case today? Or, has that changed?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Our Composite Dialogue with Pakistan is progressing very satisfactorily. I must say that the atmosphere between the two countries, I have been Ambassador to Pakistan 25 years ago, I have never seen a better atmosphere on both sides of Indo-Pak border.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: What about the Indian view that you shared once upon a time that America always leans on the side of Pakistan? Is that perception now outdated?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: I am not going to comment on what America does with Pakistan. I am concerned on how do we deal with our relationship with Pakistan, how do we take this Composite Dialogue forward.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: I will come to the Composite Dialogue in a fairly big way later on. Let me first put this to you. Do you today believe that America is putting as much effort into curbing and restraining cross-border activity against India from Pakistan as earlier America put into changing Pakistan’s foreign policy towards the Taliban in Afghanistan?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Well, I think they are trying. But we have always said that this Indo-Pak thing has to be bilateral. If our friends want to be helpful in any way, they are welcome to do so. Our stand has been that the commitment made by President Musharraf on the 6th of January 2004 that he will not allow the territory of Pakistan to be used for terrorism; he has to fully deliver on it.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: And in that process, what you are looking for from America is even-handedness.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, we are saying that you take the question in the objective reality. Here is a democracy of one billion people, which is a functioning democracy, which is trying to have good relations with Pakistan, with the United States, with China and all our neighbours. In this process, now for example, take the F-16s. This happened with the three billion that Pakistan has given in 2003 when the NDA was in office. I do not want to go into a blame game. If that had not happened, F-16s would not have happened. We have told the Americans that we are very disappointed in their giving this. But our relationship has reached a level of maturity where we can live with our differences without our fundamental, friendly, good relations being affected adversely.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Let me pick up from that. You mentioned the F-16s. When the news first broke that Americans would try to sell F-16s to Pakistan, the Indian Prime Minister himself expressed his great disappointment. Since then, it has become clear that much the same, if not more, is on offer to India: not just F-16s but also F-18s. And there is also talk of nuclear cooperation and strategic cooperation. So, now, in your considered view, is this a setback or is it in fact taking the relationship to a different dimension altogether?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, it is. Our relations with the United States is going on a different dimension. The relations have never been better. Right across, we are having exchanges with them in every area including peaceful research in nuclear energy.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: And this is why you can take in your stride the giving of F-16s to Pakistan. You may be disappointed, but you can take it in your stride.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: That is what I said. We have reached a level of maturity where we can take them. I have personally conveyed my disappointment to Condoleezza Rice on the telephone when I spoke to her. She spoke to me when I was in Myanmar. So, did the Prime Minister. I am going to Washington early next week to have talks with the Secretary of State and other officials of the Bush Administration. All these aspects will be discussed. No aspect will be left out.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Now, one of the things that was said and reported widely in Indian newspapers quoting senior State Department officials is that America has also made an offer to help make India a world player, a world power, in the 21st century, including in the military sense. How do you respond to it?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: I would have to phrase it in a different way. We are not in the game of becoming a world power. Our job is to eradicate poverty.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But what I am talking about is, how do you respond to the American offer to give that help? Is that a sign that the relationship has now moved considerably further than was imagined, envisaged a year ago?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: The military aspect is only one aspect of two dozen areas in which we are cooperating and cooperating very well. But our Defence Ministry and our Defence establishment will take a very good look at it as the Defence Minister said the other day and then we will respond to the particular matter of F-16s and F-18s. But there is a possibility that we can have joint production on some areas.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: You are sticking to the F-16s, but I am talking about the sentiment from Washington that they want to help India become a world power. How do you respond to that sentiment?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, I have again said so. This particular … is not well-phrased in my judgement because we are not in the game of becoming a world power. We have first of all to get ride of poverty, illiteracy, disease and hunger.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, you are saying America is misleading India when it extends its hand in this manner.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: I am not going to pass a value judgement. They have used their language, they are welcome to do so. We welcome the improvement in our relations and raising our relations to a much higher level and this is starting from …
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: I am surprised that you are not more happy at this sentiment because Indian newspapers have seen it as a sign that the relationship between Delhi and Washington has now changed dramatically. You have your reservations about the phrasing.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: I do not have any reservation at all. I am just saying that this particular phrase that the United States will help India become a world power. We should help ourselves with the aid of our friends, with the good will of our friends.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: We can do it ourselves, we do not need help to get that.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, I do not say that. We need help. All countries need help. There is the whole question of globalisation, interdependence.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Where does Washington stand on India’s bid to join the United Nations Security Council as a permanent member? It is known that they have endorsed the Japanese and the Germans. What have they said to you?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: I do not think they have endorsed the Germans, as far as I know. We have had discussions with them. They have not fully made up their mind. I intend taking this up when I go to Washington next week. We have had very wide support from the …
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: When you say they have not fully made up their mind, does that mean they have not closed their mind either?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: I hope so that they have not closed their mind. I will certainly ask this particular question as to where do you stand on the reform in the United Nations and India’s place as a permanent member within it.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: And you remain hopeful that you could have their support.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Well, let me say one thing that diplomacy offers hope, not salvation.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Earlier, the Indian Government has said that the Security Council permanent membership without the veto would be meaningless. Three months later, are you more amenable to that idea?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No. I think the position has been made quite clear by the Prime Minister that India will not accept any discrimination between the original P-5 veto power and the future P-5 permanent members.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, reports in the papers that you have changed your position about the veto are inaccurate and incorrect.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes. It is clearly stated by the Prime Minister that no discrimination between the original P-5 and the new P-5 or P-6.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, India is looking for permanent membership of the Security Council with veto powers.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: That is right.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: And nothing less would be acceptable.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: We are looking for permanent membership with veto power.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: All right. Now, on Thursday, a couple of days before this interview is broadcast, the first bus is going to roll on from Srinagar to Muzaffarabad and vice versa. There is a lot of hope and excitement about it. Do you see this as an achievement of significance or simply as a sign that the atmosphere between the two countries is changing?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: I think it is a very significant development. This bus is now going to Muzaffarabad after 57 years. Families have been divided for 57 years.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, this is substantial.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: This is very substantial. I want to say that our friends of Pakistan, without their cooperation this would not have happened. Similarly, the rail link. We are going to open the rail link on the 2nd of October between the Sindh and Rajasthan, closed in 1965. We are going to have a bus to …
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But that the people are coming together, families that are divided are getting a chance to meet again, yet itself that the real test of the peace process between India and Pakistan would be how you tackle the tricky question of Kashmir. In September, in New York the two heads of Government agreed to explore options for a solution. When will that actual exploration start?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: This is a continuous process. I have openly told our friends in Pakistan there is no quick fix. These are complex problems going back decades. It will take some time. It is not …
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Quite right. The end is a long way away. But has the beginning happened? Have you begun talking about options for solutions?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, the Prime Minister said all options are open except redrawing the map of India or a second partition.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Quite right. That is a statement India made. But have talks between both sides, formal talks, about these options started?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, we are talking about all issues including Jammu and Kashmir. This is a step. This bus service, when the two people come and meet with each other and see what is happening and get to know each other, this is a very substantial step forward.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Let me put it like this. Does India have its own options for solution that it wants to put on the table at this point?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: We are open to all suggestions, as Prime Minister said. Let them put, we will discuss with them.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But it sounds as if you are saying that when they put the suggestions, we will discuss it; you do not have any of your own that you want to put on the table.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: We are quite clear. We are open to all options that they offer except redrawing the map of India and having a second partition.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, when General Musharraf comes to India, as he is expected, for cricket on the 16th and 17th of this month, and if takes up this subject of Kashmir, will you simply listen to what he has to say or do you have things of your own that you want to say to him?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: It will depend on what he has to offer. If you say ‘a, b, c, d’, we will say, ‘All right, Sir, let us have a look at it”. We will sit down.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But, do you have ‘e, f, g, h’ of your own?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: We do not have to have it. It is they who are raising this question for the last fifty years.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, the ball is in their court.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Exactly.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: The ball is in their court.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Absolutely.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: The Pakistanis, however, tend to feel that India wants to push the relationship in terms of confidence-building measures in areas like cricket, trade and cultural contacts but when it comes to Kashmir, India drags its feet.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: At one stage, they did not want to talk about anything except Kashmir. Now, they are no longer unifocal. They say, we will discuss with you other matters. I tell them that, “Listen, our trade with China is 13.6 billion dollars in 2004 while with Pakistan, it is 400 million dollars.”
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But you are diverting the question. The Pakistanis say that the Indians want to talk about anything but Kashmir. When you say to me that “the ball is in their court, we will listen to whatever they have to say but we do not have any options of our own to put on the table”, in a sense to the audience that might sound as if the Pakistanis have a point.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, they do not. I will tell you, they say, for example, ‘the wishes of the Kashmiri people’. What do you mean by that? We have got elections in Kashmir. There is an elected Government. They are electing Members of Parliament and they are electing Members of the Assembly. Now, a similar exercise is not taking place on that side. So, ‘wishes of the Kashmiri people’ means what?
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Do you get the feeling that the problem is that you are both willing to talk but you are both talking at each other rather than to. You have different agendas, different motives, different ends that you want to get to and you are not meeting in the middle.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: We are meeting all the time. The objective is to …
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Physically, but not in conversation.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, in conversation. The objective is to take Indo-Pak relations to a level where the future of the Indo-Pak relations is not in the past. Look at the 21st century and get on with it.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: And, are you getting to that level?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, we are hoping. We are trying very hard.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Is steady progress happening.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, it is.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Let me put something to you. You said a moment ago that the Indian Prime Minister has said that he does not want redrawing of boundaries. In fact, his full phrase was he wants to make boundaries and borders irrelevant. What does that mean?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: It means that you produce good will, you produce friendship, you produce amity.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Does that also mean soft borders? Does it also mean without damaging sovereignty on either side giving a real say to the other in the affairs of your own?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Given the history of this particular issue, one has to tread very cautiously, with great patience, with great restraint, with great wisdom and with great hope.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: And that is what you plan to do?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But you are going to be imaginative and creative to the extent possible.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, we are. That is why the Composite Dialogue is going ahead the way it is.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Now, another landmark visit is taking place. In fact, on Saturday is the arrival of the Chinese Prime Minister. He has already said that this is the most important item in his calendar for 2005. Where does it stand in yours?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Exactly the same.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: This is the single most important thing?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: It depends on (a) whether the Prime Minister goes to the United States or not; (b) whether Mr. Bush comes here or not. So, it will be one of the very major items for us. For him to have said that for him it is, I think, is a very very significant statement and we welcome it.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: You welcome it.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Absolutely.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: The Indian newspapers are speculating that the two countries are poised to sign an agreement on principles to help you sort out your five-decade-old border dispute
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Ye, we have had four meetings of the Special Representatives. The fifth will take place on the 10th or 11th when our NSA’s counterpart …
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Are you at a point where you can agree on principles on how to sort out the dispute?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, we are going to discuss this particular matter and if an agreement is reached, it would be reached during this visit. That is out objective.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, if an agreement is reached, it could be reached during the Chinese Prime Minister’s visit.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: It could be. But, what are the parameters, what are the criteria for the demarcation of this and if you reach this stage, it is a very very good development.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: The papers say that the two principles on which both sides are narrowing is – firstly, concern for each other’s security and secondly, non-disturbance of the existing populations. Can you confirm that those are the principles you have identified?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Our relations have now reached a strategic high ground, as the Chinese Prime Minister said the other day, and we are going to look at this as to how to resolve this. Fortunately, since 1988, since Rajiv Gandhi went there, the border has been tranquil, peaceful, no friction. In that spirit both the countries, large countries, both countries doing well, we should be able to address ourselves to this and resolve this amicably.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: And if you do end the visit with an agreement on principles to sort out the border, that will be a landmark achievement.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, it is one of them. There are many other issues that are going to come.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But this is an important issue.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: It is a really important subject.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: All right. China also happens to be one of the Big Five in the United Nations. Do you have their support for India’s membership of the Security Council?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: In the interview that the Chinese Prime Minister gave to the PTI, they said that the United Nations needs reform, the Security Council needs reform, developing countries need to be …
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Quite right. They said two important things one, that the United Nations need reform and two, that there should a greater role for India in the international sphere. But that does not …
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: In the Security Council.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: I do not think he used the word Security Council.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, I think I have it written here.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: No, he did not. That is how you are interpreting it.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, I do not want to interpret. We have been in touch with them. He said, “India is a major developing country that plays a positive role in regional and international affairs. I fully understand India’s position and I am ready to see a greater role of India in the international affairs and the United Nations.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But a greater role in the United Nations does not mean a ‘yes’ to Security Council membership.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: What is the reform about?
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: That is your interpretation.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: The whole world knows about it. The reform means that of the Security Council to make it more democratic, make it more representative. 1945 is no longer relevant in 2005.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Okay. Foreign Minister, you have every right to interpret the Chinese Foreign Minister as you want. I am simply quoting that it is not a clear-cut case as you are saying.
Let us move to the situation with India’s neighbouring countries. You have taken a very strong line against King Gyanendra’s assumption of direct power in Kathmandu. The Americans, the British and the European Union have supported you. But, have you got the response from Kathmandu you were hoping for?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, we have not got. But, it is encouraging to see that Mr. Koirala has been released; Mr. Deuba has been released; and I hope Mr. Nepal, the former Foreign Minister, will also be released. Our relations with Nepal are unique. They are extremely close. We do not need visas to go there and they do not need visas to come here.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But you said a very important thing a moment ago that you have not got the response you were hoping for.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: We have not. But we would like him to unwind. The emergency should be ended and the political parties …
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Far from unwinding, the impression he gives is that he is not really listening to you, he is refusing to meet your Ambassador since the gentleman returned, and he is making trouble, to use a colloquialism, for Indian companies in that country.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Again, it is a very distressing situation. We are a very large country. We have to be excessively sensitive to the feelings of the Nepalese and the Nepal’s establishment. What Nepal needs today is both a Constitutional Monarchy and democracy so that we can deal with Maoists.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: In the way you handled this situation, let me put it to you, a point your critics often make, have you overplayed your hand? Have you boxed both yourself and the King into a corner and made each other defensive rather than responsive?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: On the contrary, this is not the first time this situation has arisen in the last fifty years. We have lived with it again and again. When it happened in 1988 I had to go and meet his brother.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: So, it is a game of bluff that you are playing, and you are waiting to see who blinks first.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: No, it is not a game of bluff. It is a game of diplomatic patience and to use maximum restraint. We have all the leverage. We are not going to use any leverage. We are hoping His Majesty will be able to see what the reality is.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: And if he does not, then what?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: We will wait and watch.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: How long will you wait and watch?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: We have a great capacity for waiting.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Do you mean, infinite patience?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Yes, we have, as far as Nepal is concerned.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But if you are going to be infinitely patient, then why did you bother to act adversely in the first place? Why were not you more understanding of his problems?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: How do you know we were not? We have conveyed everything to His Majesty. The fact that he has not met our Ambassador, it is unfortunate. But that does not mean that we are going to turn our face. We are deeply interested in the welfare of the Nepalese people. We are deeply interested in containing the Maoist insurgency and for that His Majesty needs the functioning of Parliament, having elections, and unwinding emergency.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: Let me sum up this interview where we have covered a gamut of subjects, by putting this to you.
Just under a year ago when you first became Foreign Minister, you were accused of being out of touch with reality, of speaking out of turn, of putting your foot in your month. Are you more comfortable in the job today?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: I do not agree with what those people said. People who know me would never have said so. I have a fair amount of experience in this.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: But do you think you are the one left smiling rather than your critics?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: Believe me, if I were to bother about my critics, then I could not function. My principal objective is to safeguard the vital national interests of India every time and every day.
SHRI KARAN THAPAR: There, Foreign Minister, we have to end it. Thank you very much for speaking to Hard Talk India.
