MODERATOR: I am honored to host this session. It is titled “In dialogue/The view from Athens”. I am joined by my guest, His Excellency Nikos Dendias, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Hellenic Republic.
There is much to talk about and time is short, so let’s begin. Mr. Minister, welcome.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you for hosting me.
MODERATOR: Thank you. I wanted to ask a general opening question. The US-Greek relationship has been undergoing a renaissance. One might say, the moment when the renaissance begun, I think, is the second Obama term. But despite political changes in US and a change of administration in Athens, the relationship is only going from strength to strength I would say.
With new Biden Administration in office, Mr. Minister, could I ask you to outline for us here in US what you would like to see from Washington in the coming years? What is working well, and where we can work better together?
N. DENDIAS: Well, thank you for the question. It is something that is very interesting from our side as well to look at and to take into account what has been achieved, and also to look forward to what we can do more, what we can do better.
As a comment to start with, I would say that these relations, the Greek-US relations are built on a very solid foundation of common values, which sounds like a stereotype, but it is not.
And, if you allow me to say, in our region it is rather something that is in demand, to have a common understanding of the world order, of the rule of law, of democracy, human rights, of common values; to have a common understanding of how we would like the world to move forward.
We have a very good relation, we had a very good relation as a country with the Obama Administration, we had a very good relation with the Trump Administration, and we are having a very good relation with the Biden Administration.
We have signed a defense agreement with the Trump administration, Secretary Pompeo was in Athens in October 2019, and we are negotiating a revised MDCA with the Biden Administration.
Now, your basic question, which is a fundamental question, is what Greece wants more from the US. The answer is, we would like to have more American presence in the region. This is a very turbulent region, and I have to say that when the US leave a vacuum, other powers, which do not necessarily have the same understanding of the world order, of human rights, of democracy, try to fill the gap. So, we would like and the area needs more of the US, not less.
MODERATOR: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Let’s talk about the Eastern Mediterranean, because I think that is one area there is much room for increased cooperation. You had a contentious press conference with the Turkish counterpart the other week. It is the latest stirrup in a relationship that…
N. DENDIAS: Let’s call it not usual.
MODERATOR: Okay, not usual, fair enough. The European Union has, I think, spoken in one voice, I think, and developing a strategy for the Eastern Mediterranean. Apart from being more present, could you talk a little bit more about what you would see as, what you would like to see the United States do strategically in the Eastern Mediterranean?
N. DENDIAS: I have to say that the United States is in a unique position, because the United States is an ally of Greece, and the United States is also an ally of Turkey. And both countries are members of NATO, and the United States is the leading force in NATO, has been, is, will be. So, the United States have a very strong relation with both allies, with both Greece and Turkey.
The problem with the Turkish side is that, unfortunately, Turkey slowly but, I have to say, obviously, deviates from the world example that the United States really projects, which means rule of law, human rights, democracy and also participation in a rules-based international order.
Most, for example, of our differences with Turkey will be very easily resolved if Turkey would subscribe to the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea, or at least if Turkey would accept the UNCLOS as the standard terms of references for resolving delimitations and sea zones.
And the United States, which supports exactly the same ideas, for example, in the Pacific Ocean versus what China is claiming against the Philippines, would be the ideal partner that will help persuade Turkey that this corresponds to a better future for Turkey, a more stable future for our region, and also a much better United States – Turkish relationship.
But there are numerous examples. The United States have a lot of leverage in the region, and it is the only power that easily communicates with almost all the states and it is the power that can help enhance the relationship between the parties in the region.
Having said that, the European Union also has a role to play. But for the European Union, one thing has to be understandable. The European Union is a big power economically. But it also has to become a big power geopolitically.
MODERATOR: If I can ask you a question then, not directly related to it, but on Cyprus. It was surprising, at least to me, that Geneva talks went nowhere and that now there is talk coming from the Turkish side for a two-states solution.
You know, perhaps you have nothing more to tell us here, but can you tell us is there any hope? You were at the meetings; the UN is talking about having another set of meetings in the next couple of weeks? Are there any signs of optimism?
N. DENDIAS: Well, it is easy not to be optimist. I have to say, even myself, who has been always advocating for optimism, I can understand somebody who, observing three days in a basement in Geneva with no result at all, can say that there is no hope.
And also, the Cyprus issue is a perfect example of what I was speaking about before; that Turkey has to understand that in order to resolve the differences in our region, rules, the rules-based society in international order has to apply.
Because in Cyprus what is the difference? The one, let’s call it the one side says that we have to try to find the solution within the framework of international law and the United Nations Security Council Resolutions, when the other side, Turkey, the Turkish-Cypriots, say that no, there is no reason to do that, there is just a two-state solution, which has been imposed by the Turkish troops back in 1974, so we have to discuss on the basis of what has been achieved after the invasion of Turkey in Cyprus in 1974. So, one side advocates for the rule of law, the other side advocates for the fait accompli.
But, yet again, starting from these two so different points it is very difficult to be optimistic. But yet again, I have to say that we should continue trying.
Now, I would like to thank the Secretary General of the United Nations for doing exactly that, trying and trying and trying. I believe that reason is the ultimate force in universe. And if reason prevails, Turkey would understand and the Turkish-Cypriots would understand that the solution of the Cyprus issue according to the Resolutions of the United Nations Security Council, according to the international law, is to the best interest of the Turkish-Cypriots and to the best interest of Turkey. But having said that, it is not easy at all. We have to try a lot.
MODERATOR: Let’s just now rotate a little bit and talk about the Western Balkans, which is a region very close to my heart personally, but I know also very important to Greece. You recently met with the new Montenegrin Foreign Minister in Athens and you expressed very strong support for continuing the European enlargement.
But let me be very blunt. The plausibility of enlargement I think, over the last few years, has increasingly ran hollow across the region. And with the pandemic and the, I would say, quite clever vaccine diplomacy being leveraged by the Chinese and the Russians, and the West being kind of slow to respond to that, I am concerned that the ideal itself of a broader Europe is taking a beating.
So, the Biden team is now getting together its team to work on the Balkans. What can we all do together to restore the momentum of the European promise that was established in Thessaloniki, 20 years ago at this point?
N. DENDIAS: Thank you for appreciating that for my country, for Greece, but also for all committed Europeans, Western Balkans is a target to be included in this European success story. We cannot allow a black hole to remain in the centre of Europe.
Now, I will give you that it is not going very fast, I will give you that there are many difficulties. Also, your expression “it took a beating”, it is more than accurate, you are absolutely right.
But I have to say that, in my humble opinion, I see the European paradigm, the European experience, the European experiment, if you want me to say so, as with the monotheistic religions – with the exception of Islam – they need at least 300 years to take root, that is what happened to Christianity. You know, the European Union is much younger than that, it is not even a century from when we started this huge trip towards the unification of Europe. It will take time.
But that does not mean that we will not have to try and that we will not have to continue our efforts towards persuading our Western Balkan neighbours to accept the criteria of the European Union, and also to live according to these criteria, the European acquis.
Again, these countries do have problems, but Greece can present them with the know-how that could help them towards the European journey. And I have to say, also the European Union has to appreciate that, historically speaking, within a historical dimension of things, Europe cannot progress with a black hole in the Western Balkans. That is not feasible.
So, it may take time, it may take effort, but it is something that, in my humble opinion, needs to happen and will happen.
MODERATOR: Thank you for that. I would like to turn a little bit to questions about the economy. It is hard to miss the fact that now, even though you are Foreign Minister, Climate Change, its foreign policy, it is becoming central to thinking about international relations. The EU’s post-Covid recovery plan is heavily geared towards green technology, the Biden Administration has also made it no secret of prioritizing green goals. And your government as well has recently unveiled a very ambitious development program and investment program for Greece.
Can you talk a little bit about the opportunities there? If you like, to talk also about opportunities for the broader region around you. How do you see green priorities shaping development and integration?
N. DENDIAS: Well, first of all, let me talk about my own country, Greece and my own government, the Mitsotakis government in Greece. Well, as you know, we are a conservative government and yet again, we consider ourselves a green government. We have made huge steps, we have taken the decision, for example, to de-lignitize our economy up until 2030. May I be allowed to tell you that up to now, lignite was the main source for producing electricity in Greece and, as it is not environmentally friendly, we said no, we will go to the green energy.
But also, we have taken bold decisions in trying to protect our environment, protect our forests, protect our shores, protect our nature.
Having said that, we see ourselves as a hub for energy interconnectivity. Pipelines, but also electricity interconnectors from Africa, and also from Israel, from Cyprus. It is something that is within the programme of the Mitsotakis government.
And also, we are advancing the use of natural gas as the interim step from the current level of the economy, the energy consuming economy towards the green economy of the future. And we are trying to connect ourselves with the Balkans, in order to provide them with the choice of source of energy.
Because up to now, the whole of the Balkans could only get energy from Russia, that was that. Now, with Alexandroupolis, and with other installations in Greece, we give them a choice. They can choose, and by choosing they can get a better price. And by getting a better price for their energy, they can easily create more growth for their economies.
So, we consider ourselves as an exemplary green economy in the making, but also as a hub for energy in the Balkans and in the overall region.
MODERATOR: Finally, Mr. Minister, thank you, I would like to ask you a question about China. I think there is an ongoing debate about how to approach China, and I think it is maybe a bit of a caricature to say that it’s a strict dichotomy between seeing it either as a peer competitor or a dangerous adversary. A little oversimplified, but you see people talk about it that way.
Europe’s comprehensive agreement on investment seems to be in limbo right now and it seems to be maybe nudging the balance of how we, across the West, are talking about it in terms of thinking about China as an adversary. In Greece, how do you see this dynamic evolving? Especially given the importance of Chinese investments in Greek infrastructure. And what should the West, very broadly speaking, Europe and the United States be doing to compete better with China going forward?
N. DENDIAS: Well, first of all, thank you for using an important Greek word on your question, dichotomy. Dichotomy means cutting things into two pieces, that is what it means in Greek and it is coming from Ancient Greek. But unfortunately, in the world, we cannot do it, we cannot cut the globe into two and leave a part for China, and us, remain in the rest. There is one globe, one world and for this to function, we need a much more complicated approach than just see China as a die-hard adversary.
Having said that, also I have to mention that China was brave enough to invest in Greece during the years of crisis, when our European partners and friends did not take the risk. China took the risk to invest in the port of Piraeus, and we appreciate what China has done.
But, yet again, a two-track approach is needed. On the one hand, China is a part of the world economy, a very useful part of the world economy. Some say that China is the locomotive of the world economy. I would not necessarily subscribe to that, but it is clear that China has a very important role to play in the world economy.
But, on the other hand, as a world model, that is a different story. Because, as you understand, we believe in democracy, we believe in human rights, we believe in the rule of law and we believe in western values. We have fought for this over the years, over history. So, we appreciate all of China in the world economy, but on the other hand, we project our own model for the world, for the future generations to come. And, if I may say so, in the future, maybe China would also accept those values as more useful for its own society. Of course, that is for China to decide. But also, for us, we have our own model, and we cherish our democracies and our human rights in a way that sometimes the Chinese example is not exactly compatible with our way of living.
MODERATOR: Mr. Minister, thank you so much for your time, this has been wonderful.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you all, this was a great pleasure and a great honour, thank you so much.
